Holiday Hugs for Off-Topic Fans

@penguinpbx When I was leaving Sangoma, I advocated for @lgaetz to take on a leadership role managing the community. I trusted his judgment and believed he would make decisions in the best interest of the project, for sure I since I left, I irritated Lorne a time or two with some post, but he would reach out and we would have a conversation and work it out.

I understand that you feel attacked, but the reality is, we’re trying to share our experience with you. Did we make mistakes while running the project? Things we would do differently, if we wanted to do it again? Absolutely. But we also achieved 16 straight quarters of growth during our tenure at Sangoma. We took a project from its infancy to becoming the world’s most popular open-source PBX. That experience gives us a unique perspective, and yes, we are speaking from it. I’ve said before open source people are passionate, if one is going to advocate for open source, you have to be ready for that.

From Tony, my and James times working directly for FreePBX, We recognize the leadership of the project has changed—it’s a change we ourselves helped bring about. But when we see things going sideways or nearing the edge of a cliff, we feel compelled to point it out.

On your current approach of implementing bans and manual trust level adjustments. These actions seem to be creating more division than resolution, and that’s not the path to a stronger community.

Let’s look at some concrete data points regarding contributions to this community:

Metric Preston Joined 2010 Tony Lewis - Joined 2007 James Finstrom - Joined 2007 Chris Maj - Joined 2012 Mike White - Joined 2020 Combined @penguinpbx & @mwhite
Days Visited 2,000 3,600 3,000 244 418 662
Read Time 7 days 23 days 19 days 3 days 23 hours 4 days
Topics Viewed 5,800 23,500 11,700 1,000 869 1,869
Posts Created 883 6,300 3,800 377 42 419
Topics Created 99 111 156 20 2 22
Post Read 32,300 131,000 60,200 5,900 4,600 10,500
Hearts Received 153 935 1,300 78 59 137
Solutions Provided 8 79 89 3 0 3
Hot Links (300+ clicks) 23 29 22 0 0 0
Famous Links (1,000+ clicks) 6 9 3 0 0 0
Popular Links (50+ clicks) 97 98 188 50 0 50

Contributions Matter: Tony and James have thousands of posts, hundreds of solutions, and significant engagement through links and likes. These contributions far exceed the activity of any existing moderators, including you and Mike White, whose combined stats still don’t match those of Myself or Tony individually. It’s not just viewing and posting, look at Famous, hot and popular links well, the numbers don’t lie.

Code of Conduct and Site Guidelines: While referencing the Code of Conduct and Site Guidelines in all of your post outlining why these actions were taken, it’s worth noting that both you and Mike White only read these guidelines for the first time in September 2024—Mike on September 10th and you on September 9th. I was among the first 10 users to read the guidelines nearly 10 years ago, in December 2014. To date, only 388 people have read them, with Mike White ranked as the 367th and you as the 368th reader. It’s hard to justify heavy enforcement of rules when the moderators themselves have only recently familiarized themselves with them.

Manual Trust Adjustments: My trust level was downgraded from TL4 to TL2 (although I don’t show Leader at all, Just Member) despite high engagement. Metrics like days visited, read time, and topics viewed are objectively among the highest in the community, my my links with over 1000 clicks are also at the top of the charts. This manual adjustment raises concerns about fairness, especially when decisions are made without clear justification. Unless changed, to be moved out of TL4 would require a moderator to make that modification, there is nothing automated about it. This is an issue of transparency.

Context and Misinterpretation: The verbiage you are speaking about was hidden by you, so the community cannot see that context, the “Dictator” verbiage and threats you speak of, are from an email exchange with Tony, not a forum post that was hidden by you, as best I can tell. Tony showed me that email he sent, and Tony’s email, while strongly worded, typical of Tony, reflects frustration with how moderation is being handled, you had locked his account, with no communication so his only recourse was to email. His comment about “not lasting long” clearly refers to the sustainability of the community, not a physical threat. If there is no community involvement, then is there a role for an open source advocate? Taking it out of context and banning him escalates the situation unnecessarily.

Open Source Values: Criticism and questioning of leadership or sponsors are natural in open-source communities. Suppressing dissent creates distrust and damages the project. Open dialogue—even when uncomfortable—strengthens the community. Bans and silencing erode that foundation. We had our detractors while running the project, and apparently still have a few :wink: but we would have those conversations in public, you can just look at our post history to prove it.

The bans and trust level changes create the appearance of silencing disagreement rather than fostering collaboration. This community’s strength has always been its passionate and knowledgeable members. Actions like these risk alienating the very people who have contributed the most to its success.

If the goal is to foster a collaborative and thriving community, moderation should focus on promoting transparency, encouraging contributions, and addressing criticism constructively—not silencing key contributors. Without this, you risk isolating yourself and alienating the very people who built and supported this community and Project for years.

I hope these points are received as constructive feedback. My goal, like yours, is to see this community flourish—not fragment further.

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For what it’s worth, and as someone that has been very vocal about the mishandling of the community since Sangoma’s acquisition of Digium…

The way to handle disagreement is to reach out. The way to build back (or build period) a community is to reach out, even to those who have publicly (and openly) criticized you.

I irritated Lorne a time or two with some post, but he would reach out and we would have a conversation and work it out.

There’s a lot to be said there. To paraphrase the mouse… This is the way.

There’s precedent here as well. David Duffett, greatly rebuilt the community post freeswitch and some very public disagreement on the direction of asterisk. It was great to see the freeswitch and asterisk teams go from adversaries to community members. It’s not very difficult to find common ground with people that would even visit the forum.

The recent bans are against people who obviously have a great interest in the success and continued growth of the freepbx and asterisk projects. They also have track records of contributions (and when you exclude the contributions from when employed by Sangoma, they still have a track record of support and contribution).

If someone with a history of support expresses criticism publicly, it is my personal opinion, that banning or aggressive rule enforcement is the wrong way to go. The better way would be to reach out (even privately if needed) and work together. This was not done… and the DMs sent are the opposite of what I’m suggestion by reaching out.

Anyway, my two cents. I really wish there would be something significant… some good effort to try to build back a community. Haven’t seen any of y’all at a conference (other than your own) in years. And I’m not even talking just the telecom software conferences…

Anyone from Sangoma present at Fosdem since Matt introduced Asterisk 16?

To close… would be better to embrace the long term members being vocal about problems rather than going for a Streisand effect.

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Good question, is debatable, will include mention of the CoC disapproval on “name-calling” in the future more regularly than the row below it regarding “ad hominem”, as the former seems more self-evident (especially to non-Latin speakers :slight_smile:

The substance of the post was received and responded to, perhaps most visibly via the work towards easier ticket escalations at the top of the Commercial Modules category, but also some improvements at the top of the FAQ/CoC page. That was paired with some internal procedural updates at Sangoma, new staff training for the likes of YT, etc.

Agreed. It certainly went further Off-Topic…

All I want for Christmas is James back :christmas_tree:

I am very upset at what has been unravelling in these forums lately, to see a “silencing solution” applied to those with expressing concerns. @penguinpbx I think it would be beneficial to approach situations with a more thoughtful perspective.

The community needs a mediator, not a sheriff.

I would also like to propose a specific vertical that is concerned with Support, Quality, and Concerns.

Thanks,
Taylor

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It wasn’t an ask and answer type thing. It was meant to be a discussion, which it has failed to become. Just responding back with answers doesn’t mean the discussion is over unless it is being dismissed from be continued. Which is what it looks like has happened.

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Given the name of this topic, we would have to agree that there are very few “hugs” going around here :wink: , well #freejames got some :slight_smile:

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First, please clarify if you are using an LLM to generate text in your replies. That’s currently possibly acceptable, but per the …drum-roll… :drum: Code Of Conduct stealing section:

You may not post output from Large Language Models without giving them proper credit eg. “I copied this from …”

…which after looking at your posts from the past few months, vs. even your return to the forums earlier this year to sell your closed-source (?), third-party services after a 2 year hiatus, there seems to be a change in the length, style and tempo of your generated content.

That said, thank you, again, for all of your past contributions to the FreePBX project and community forums. :frog:

Unfortunately, Discourse default Trust Level settings 0-3 rely on recent activity for automated TL changes, and again, as pointed out before in this thread, your account falls far short of this mark (at least as of earlier today):



For comparison - and admittedly needed to like a few more things this morning myself :heart: :sun_with_face:



Of course there are some big shoes to fill here, but rest assured that one similar area of overlapping responses has been to try and reach out to have a conversation and work it out (as shown in @jfinstrom’s posting of my DM in another large OT thread, my multiple open responses in this thread, etc.)

That is NOT CLEARLY the case at all!

Here’s the first sentence from one (of several) @tonyclewis email messages to @penguinpbx this weekend:

“You are acting as a dictator and you won’t last long behaving like this.”

That’s a threat, plain and simple, and might even constitute fighting words, so @reconwireless please stop enabling @tonyclewis to (potentially) act on it(!) by dismissing the language as something else such as mere oversight, misinterpretation, or miscategorization :eyes:

Also, the word dictator was employed by @tonyclewis previously in multiple forum posts – since hidden – and note that @tonyclewis often uses it as a noun, ergo, name-calling. A potentially more acceptable criticism of ideas and behaviour that you disagree with might make the distinction by using adjectives or other methods in line with the agreeable section of the CoC.

:pray:

You should look at and reference my FreePBX blog posts as a reference for my standard writing, Standard Browser tools - Chrome Spell check and Grammarly, etc do a much better job these days at helping my spelling and grammar mistakes: Preston McNair, Authors at FreePBX - Let Freedom Ring

My question was primarily about being moved from TL4 which would have been done by a moderator, not automatically. If you did it thats fine, I will live, but an open transparent answer would be appreciated.

I think if you were to even include the next sentence he wrote, and not be so selective of your copy paste you will see the context changes. “You are acting as a dictator and you won’t last long behaving like this. You should take advice from all past leaders of the project and realize your mistakes…”

I’ve given my 2 cents on this, as have others, looking at the likes on my comments, I would assume there are more that feel this way. It’s your job not mine here, so you do you, listen to advice or stay on that hill… Remember your job title is to advocate on behalf of the open source community… unless maybe we have it backwards, and you are to advocate Sangoma to the open source community. Either way, you know how I and many others feel about the decisions being made lately, I’m not certain what outcome and results you are looking for here.

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If this was a opinion vote here, @penguinpbx received 1 like, but 59 likes accumulated by all the other posters (who are still allowed to like :wink: ) .

Historically, folks who have almost no support for their position, tend to have short lived tenure. There are exceptions, Bashar-al-Assad and Nicolae Ceaușescu come to my mind ;- )

According to

https://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem&oq=ad+hominem&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTQ3OTBqMGoxNagCCLACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This post is probably ‘ad hominem’

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To isolate your LLM/AI point
I used it . . .

Search Labs | AI Overview

Learn more

The main difference between an ombudsman and an advocate is that an ombudsman is neutral and impartial, while an advocate is authorized to represent an individual or group:

  • Ombudsman

An ombudsman is a neutral, impartial, and independent individual who provides services to help resolve concerns and problems. They can work in many sectors, including government, academia, and business. Ombudsmen can provide services such as mediation, conflict coaching, and resource referrals. They do not advocate for any particular individual or group, and they do not provide legal advice.

  • Advocate

An advocate is authorized to represent the interests of an individual or group. They can work in the public or private sector. Advocates can provide information, advice, and assistance to their constituents. They can also initiate action in administrative, judicial, or legislative forums.

I am asking you to clarify as a Sangoma apponted “advocate”, who have you been authororized to represent , thusly , who do you consider your ‘constituents’, so for which side are you “initiating” any visible or invisible actions ?

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Since my last didn’t help…

The best ways to handle disagreements and build the community, include:

  • active listening
  • seeking common ground
  • finding solutions
  • maintaining respect
  • trying to understand others’ point of view

What doesn’t work is:

  • trying to win an argument
  • personal attacks
  • blaming

You have a chance to lead a community… and there’s a lot of us hoping you can do so. But your continued need to argue with community members, play the blame game, and set a combative tone isn’t helping to do so.

I implore you to try a different approach.

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@penguinpbx Simply put, these bans are not a good look. Folks have opinions and are entitled to them. As a stockholder myself, If I were banned for dubious reasons there would be serious ramifications and I would not care to be on the receiving end of the fallout. Beyond that, banning long time contributors is, as you can see, not getting the support you may have wished for.

Please reconsider these bans and start repairing the damage done. You still have an opportunity to regain community trust and become the steward the project needs.

As I personally have separated from Sangoma, I legally can’t say how I really feel about all this other than please right the boat as only you can at the moment.

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A little context for this entire post, since I got flagged for it last time but it’s appropriate and not off-topic in relation to this post, and the response to me appears to be the template for the creation of this post.



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I called Tony after reading this. I was shown the whole email. I can absolutely attest to the fact that there was absolutely nothing threatening in that email. Of course, the best way to prove this would be for you to simply release the email in question.

Furthermore, since when is it ok to ban people for their words via email as opposed to their words on the forum?

Clearly, (see, I used one of those puns like @penguinpbx did) if you look at my account, I don’t post enough on this group to amount to much, I’m not a contributer to open source or anything like that, but we do host and rebrand FreePBX for many clients and I’ll be honest, someone as gung hoe as you are for censoring and defaming someone, it is not a good look for Sangoma. #FreeJames #FreeTony

For full disclosure, I am a partner and customer of both Sangoma and Clearly IP

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Notice you have not received a SINGLE like any of your posts in this thread, nor the other so-called “off-topic” one?

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@penguinpbx , please clarify if you are still reading your replies . . .

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“not…a SINGLE like”…Jesus, he really must be the bad guy! Kindergarten! :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Now that you’ve finally confirmed my suspicions, I can publicly weigh in. Hogwash. It refers to your work and your job position and anybody with a modicum of sense can see that.

As it is, you are making false accusations against a community member, which should lead to an immediate suspension of yourself.

I defy you to claim that you felt like it was a physical threat, and if you truly did, you do not have any business being online, let alone a moderator of a large community. I certainly hope you learn from your mistakes and change your behavior. As it is you are harming the community. Whether or not you will last long is up to those you work for at Sangoma, not me. But I hope something changes soon.

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Pretty sure that if there were ever a ‘vote of confidence’ for Chris Maj (aka @penguinpbx) for his continued self elected position as “open source advocate” he would fail dismally. unfortunately we can’t do that .

Is there any one with big-boy pants still at Sangoma?

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